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Session Start: Sun Mar 30 22:11:14 1997
<Serpente> I have some prepared words I'm going to paste
in to get us started
<Serpente> but the format is basicly unmoderated
<abraxas> btw, Exscrps I still cant find De Arte Magica on
your page
<ExscrpsYd> Where is Amon-Ra Oasis located? I don't
have a copy of the Link handy.
<abraxas> Toronto, Ontario
<Serpente> <*> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the
Law. Love is the law, love under will.
<Serpente> <*> On behalf of the users of Undernet
Channel #Thelema, allow me to extend a hearty welcome
to all.
<Serpente> <*> The topic for tonights discussion is Chapter
0 of Magick in Theory and Practice.
<abraxas> Welcome to the Magick in Theory and Practice
Discussion
<Serpente> <*> You may find the text at http://www.winterne
t.com/~robin/magick00.html and I recommend that you
bring the text up on your web browser now before we
begin so that you may easily refer to
<Serpente> it.
<Serpente> <*> This is the first time we have tried to hold a
discussion of such a complex nature here but due to
popular demand we thought it would be worth attempting.
IRC is a tricky medium to hold
<Serpente> discussions of a complex nature so we would
like to ask that everyone remain focused on the topic at
hand to help us avoid distractions.
<Serpente> <*> The format of tonights discussion is
essentially unmoderated. Rather than attempt to lecture
on my own or anyone elses understanding of the topic,
our hope is to encourage everyone to
<Serpente> contribute so that we may all learn from each
others perspectives.
<Serpente> <*> We understand that there will be a wide
range of depth of understanding among those present.
My hope is that both seasoned and newcomers to the
subject of Magick will gain something from
<Serpente> our discussion and feel free to comment.
<Serpente> <*> In the event that a subject arises which
one of our moderators feels would be too far afield from
our subject matter, they may message you and request
that a particular line of discussion
<Serpente> be tabled for later, perhaps after the
discussion or at another time. Please respect thier
requests.
<Serpente> <*> If you do not understand something and
would like more information on a general topic that would
take us off subject, take note of it and one of our
moderators will try to help you identify
<Serpente> further resources for your research if possible
after the discussion.
<Serpente> (since we dont have ops we dont have any
moderators so bear with us :))
<Serpente> <*> Within Crowley's text he would set certain
phrases out in bold text for emphasis. I have taken the
liberty of assuming that these bolded statements may be
taken as a kind of outline for
<Serpente> the text and will quote them out to the channel
as we go along in an attempt to focus our discussion.
<Serpente> <*> We will begin in a couple of minutes with
the first topic.
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 1 : There are three main theories of
the Universe; Dualism, Monism and Nihilism.
<Serpente> Ok that is the prepared stuff :)
<DeadFish> alright.. does that mean that the colored text
is over?
<abraxas> First I'd like to suggest a chapter in Magick
without Tears which explains the whole thing with these
theories of the Universe.
<Ringo_X> I've briefly looked into these concepts, but
couldnt say any of it stuck, anone got any background re
these terms
<ADM> umm, Crowley has specific meanings for these
terms that are a bit different than otehrs may have used
<Serpente> abraxas feel free to give us your reference
<abraxas> So quick review: Dualism-two opposite things,
Good and Evil, God and Satan and so on, present in
Christianity especially
<ADM> umm and material/spiritual as in descartes
<DeadFish> so, apart from the heirarchal value imposed
apon it, how is the nuit-hadit different from dualism?
<abraxas> yes
<Inconnu> right, the two principle in a dualism don't
*necessarily* have to be in conflict
<abraxas> I think that it is basically the same thing except
that morality is not involved
<ADM> i think that'll come later deadfish
<Ringo_X> not opposties..complimentries?
<DeadFish> righto
<ADM> we still haven't laid out the terms yet
<Ringo_X> monism?
<Serpente> perhaps I should continute with a couple more
of the statements
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 2: All are reconciled and unified in
the theory which we shall now set forth.
<DeadFish> sorry, i'll wait until a mutual language is
established.
<DeadFish> GAH.
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 3: Infinite space is called the
goddess NUIT, while the infinitely small and atomic yet
omnipresent point is called HADIT. These are
unmanifest. One conjunction of these infinites
<Serpente> is called RA-HOOR-KHUIT, a unity which
includes and heads all things.
<abraxas> let's try to see how qabalah unifies these
theories
<Ringo_X> monism- one reality, any appearence of 'evil' an
illususion
<ADM> umm so far we've only laid out what one of theoeris
was
<ADM> remember we have newbies here who may not
know what these terms mean
<abraxas> ok, monism would be basically the uniformity of
Nature
<Ilios> Dualism= Duality, Monism= Oneness Nihilism=
Nothingness
<abraxas> Now for dualism there is Nuit and Hadit
<abraxas> Ra-Hoor-Khuit could be monism, but somehow I
don't like that
<abraxas> any comments
<IBR> nop
<DeadFish> well, ra-hoor-khuit, being the one thing that
includes and precedes all these things, seems like
another form of monism.
<ADM> Actually ra-hoor comes off as being your
namesake, abraxas
<Ringo_X> I've had difficulty with the concept as laid out in
MTP re RHK as Kether
<Serpente> How is Nihilism reconciled in these concepts?
<Inconnu> esp. since ra-hoor-khuit is contingent on nuit
and hadit, not vice versa
<Aleister> monism is sometimes attributed to 'cosmic
consciousness'
<Mathetes> Abraxas..per AL in the 3rd chap....ra-hoor-khuit
is part of a dualism with hoor-par-kraat
<ADM> Ra hoor is a unity of things, not a thing
<abraxas> Nihilism is +1+(-1) serpente, therefore nuit
+hadit
<Inconnu> right, if there is a unifing archetype in thelema it
would be heru-ra-ha, who doesn't get talked about
much...
<Ringo_X> in the text AC says there is also a particular
nature of Him..etc etc
<abraxas> true, Inconnu, Crowley says that Herraha would
be more correct
<abraxas> herraha=HeruRaHa
<Ringo_X> heru-ra-ha unifies Ra Hoor and Hoor Par?
<abraxas> right
<Solar-ny> I don't see Hadit as a -1
<Serpente> I would think perhaps Nuit would be the more
negative to Hadits positive
<abraxas> Also "These are unmanifest" compare to ALIII22
<abraxas> yes, serpente, I think that I made mistake up
there
<Serpente> ok lets continute for now
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 4: All true gods are attributed to this
Trinity.
<abraxas> now, why does Ra-Hoor-Khuit include all things
<Inconnu> ringo, Al aludes to something like that
<Ilios> It should be fairly obvious, that "Good" and "Evil"
are relative. Skip the morality for an instance... Duality is
needed for the creative process ...
<abraxas> btw, that Trinity that is mentioned is Keter,
Chokmah, Binah
<DeadFish> what about Din?
<DeadFish> .)
<Aymin> the distiction creates a means for unification....
<abraxas> compare that Trinity with the White Triangle in
Golden Dawn
<Ringo_X> AS RHK identified with Kether.....heads all
thinks...a result of the interplay of Nu and Had
<Ilios> In the Tree the first duality is taking place between
Kether and Chochmah.
<ADM> umm can we try to keep the references focused to
just MiTaP chapter 0 as much as possible for the sake of
the folks who haven't read the whole crowley corpus?
<Serpente> So ringo is suggesting an association of
RHK-Keter Hadit-Chokman and Nuit-Binah, the supernal
qabalistic triad
<Ilios> Monism would exist in the Kether state of being ...
Any comments ???
<abraxas> I wouldnt agree with that
<Ringo_X> No, Nu and Had 'beyond' kether
<Ilios> In there All is one, and One is All ...
<Solar-ny> Per 777 Nuit = 0 Hadit =1 RHK =1
<Ilios> It is the prime, and only manifestation ...
<Leafbaby> mm all:)
<ExscrpsYd> Hey, I just got knocked out of mIRC!! Did I
miss something?
<abraxas> solar, that's the old version
<Ilios> Ok, why not ???
* shoe93 is taking it all in..will process at a later date
<Ringo_X> Nuit - Ain
<abraxas> later, crowley said that Nuit=0, Hadit=0, RHK=1
<DeadFish> ExscrpsYd: yes. we discovered the secret of
eternal life and have all become trandsendentally
illuminated, and YOU MISSED IT
<Ringo_X> or nuit- ain soph
<Serpente> and yet AC seems to indicate this be saying in
the next sentence "An immeasurable abyss divides it
from all manisfests.."
<Serpente> refering to that triad
<DeadFish> well, 0 does not equal -1
<abraxas> yes, we are all separated from our higher self by
the abyss
<Ringo_X> mainfestations of reason....
<Ilios> Then Hadit = +1 Nuit= -1
<abraxas> that's the fall from Eden
<Mathetes> no...Nuit is continuous...so speak of her not at
all :)
* Aymin itches his nose
<Aymin> why must either be associated Qabalistically?
<Solar-ny> abrasax, source?
<Ringo_X> I find it interesting that as all events, I guess
'point events' are result of interplay of nuit and hadit
manifesting as RHK as too with ourselves
<abraxas> solar, look at p.81 in 777
<Ringo_X> mmm, maybe we should creep below the abyss?
<abraxas> true, ringo, we are all children of Nuit and Hadit
<Serpente> OK lets continue on a bit
<Aymin> Heya Leafy
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 5: The microcosm is an exact image
of the Macrocosm; the Great Work is the raising of the
whole man in perfect balance to the power of Infinity.
<Ringo_X> the first part of teh chapter seems to me to be
a restatemtn of qab. with a thelemic spin
* Solar-ny is usung the tables in Liber ABA, I thought they
were the most recent........
<Aymin> Serp, or the annihilition of reconciliation.
<Ilios> Isnt The Had and Nuit subject one of Liber Al
ie.Forbidden to be discussed ??? :)
<schoelman> what is the subject in here? is it still magik
<abraxas> concerning that, compare A.'.A.'.degrees
<abraxas> where microcosm is equilibrated with macrocosm
<Ringo_X> RHK- "a unity which both heads and includes
all things..."
<ExscrpsYd> Deadfish: good one!!!
<ExscrpsYd> There's also the attribution of Ra-Hoor-Khuit
with the entire Second Triad.
<Ringo_X> yes, where?
<abraxas> true, the downpointing triangle of RHK
<Serpente> That makes certain sense Exscrps
<Ringo_X> mmhh nod
<Ilios> Everything could be traced Qabalistically ...
<Ringo_X> the aeon atu seems to represent this well
<abraxas> for that take a look at Law is For all,
commentary on AL,III,1
* Serpente recalls in the Stele that RHK is on the same
'level' as the preist which suggests a knowablility
<schoelman> shoe93: what is the topic here?
<Ringo_X> yes serp
<abraxas> perhaps the altar could be abyss then, serp?
<Ringo_X> we are on the same level as 'children' of hadit
and nuit
<Ringo_X> this seems to me to be a fundemental shift
<Ringo_X> "there is no god where I am"
<abraxas> and Abyss is nothing but veil which obstructs us
from seeing that
<Ilios> I think the topics fly too quickly .. :) Is Chaos a
prerequisite for the conducted "discussion" ????
<abraxas> ok, let's get back to our topic here
<ADM> yes lets
<shoe93> they are discussing chapter 0 of Magick in
Theory and Practice. But I am just an onlooker :)
<ExscrpsYd> Serpente, yes indeed.
<Ilios> ;)
<Serpente> we also have some lag to deal with
<ExscrpsYd> Internet Relay Chat, should be Internet Delay
Chat ;)))))
<Ringo_X> ok, so how does what we've 'discussed'
transcend and unify all the perspectives offered in topic
1?
<shoe93> lol ex
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 5: The microcosm is an exact image
of the Macrocosm; the Great Work is the raising of the
whole man in perfect balance to the power of Infinity.
<Serpente> oops
<Solar-ny> 0=2
<abraxas> never thought of that solar
<ADM> it's reconcile and unify, not transcend and unify
and that is an important distinction here, Ringo_X
<Ilios> 0=All
<Serpente> ADM can you explain your statement a bit
more?
<Ringo_X> gotcha ADM
<ExscrpsYd> Solar, very good point!
<ADM> sure serpente
<ADM> Transcend implies moving beyond, that doesn't fit
well with unify
<ADM> what i think he is trying to say is that the Three
Main theories of the universe basically are saying parts of
the same thing
<abraxas> Transcend would be I+H resulting in V
<Inconnu> hey ent!
<ADM> they all go in circles
<abraxas> I agree with ADM
<ExscrpsYd> Sorry, but I have to go. This is very
interesting. I'll come back later. 93 93/93
<abraxas> cause you can look at Nuit and Hadit as
nihilism, or monism or dualism
<ADM> not or, but and
<Solar-ny> Exactly, ADM, et al, they have to go in circles
below the abyss
<abraxas> each is everything else
<Armadel> love is the law
<ADM> nihilism and dualism and monism
<Serpente> I see, so rather than replacing these systems
with something better, they are all embraced while
retaining thier validity
<Serpente> such as it is
<Solar-ny> "Unity transcends consciousness"
<abraxas> uniting them with love
<Firefly`> Bkwyrm's not here.
<abraxas> also, by uniting what seem to be opposites, we
move beyond abyss
<DeadFish> unconsciousness transends beer.
<ADM> or at least that's the hope;)
<Solar-ny> hehehe
<ADM> and by seeing that all of these viewpoints are not
mutually exclusive it lets on be in all those viewpoints
<ADM> see footnote number 1
<abraxas> or uniting with Nuit constantly
<ADM> by expanding the number of points of view one can
have you expand the oportunites for ground breaking
discoveries
<Ilios> In the bottom line, everything is One-None, and
everything will return to it, is seems reasonably logical,
and easily explained in Maths ... Why the fuss ??? ;)
<Serpente> which brings us to mathmatics :)
<entropia> 93 math
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 6: The Apologia for this System is
that our purest conceptions are symbolized in
Mathematics. "God is the Great Arithmetician." "God is
the Grand Geometer." It is best therefore
<Serpente> to prepare to apprehend Him by formulating
our minds according to these measures.
<Ringo_X> 0=2 discussed pretty fully in Magick wo Tears
<DeadFish> well in a sense, yes.. uniting apparent
opposites does a good job of moving one past the abyss,
but i should hope that something like that won't be taken
as advice and kept in mind when actually facing the abyss
<Ringo_X> mmhh, numbers as 'pure idea'?
<Serpente> So complete disoulution into nothingness is
going to have to wait a bit Deadfish?
<abraxas> things in themselves
<abraxas> read some I.Kant for that
<DeadFish> Serp: well, pre preparation and suchlike takes
all the fun out of it
<abraxas> Also, even better example, Pythagoras based
his philosophy on math and numbers
<Solar-ny> mathmatics IS the universal language
<Ilios> Pythagoras had his own Mystery school, and magic
system...
<DeadFish> and besides, a simple phrase like "resolving
apparent opposites" isn'tnecessarily going to prepare
one for what form those opposites will take.
<DeadFish> Solar: but WHICH mathematics? base-ten?
<Ilios> Quite advanced, I assure you ....
<DeadFish> binary?
<theurj> The older base 60 of the Sumerians is of interest.
<abraxas> Crowley seemed to impressed with Russell's
math philosophy
<Ringo_X> numbers as revealing the most fundemental
process of the universe?
<Solar-ny> does it matter, Deadfish? It should be
recognizable that 1=1 in any system
<Ringo_X> and whats that abrax in 25 wordds or les?
<ADM> Psst, serpente time for the next topic:)
<DeadFish> Solar: depending on what you're DOING with
the system, yes.
* Serpente nods :)
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 7: By the use of this system the
magician is able ultimately to unify the whole of his
knowledge --- to transmute, even on the Intellectual
Plane, the Many into the One.
<DeadFish> much numerology depends WHOLLY on it
being base-ten
<Aleister> no solar, it took russell 100 pages of
assumptions to arrive at 1=1
<abraxas> by hanging everything on its proper branch on
Tree of Life
<Solar-ny> lol
<Serpente> number base is simply a convienience, 16
rocks look like 16 rocks even if a say "there are F rocks"
<DeadFish> serp: sure. but, if you're reducing numbers,
you are entirely dependant on the base of those numbers.
<Inconnu> abraxas: which russel? c.f. or bertrand?
<abraxas> bertrand
<Serpente> agreed Deadfish
<DeadFish> x=777, 7+7+7=21, 2+1=3 brand numerology
only has significance in a base ten system
<ADM> The base is kinda arbitrary
<Inconnu> c.f. was a mathematician as well
<ADM> These systems are useful for lots of stuff below the
abyss but they have their limits and are kinda arbitrary
<DeadFish> mathematics is universal, i'm just trying to
keep a distinction that not everything done with numbers
is similarly universal
<abraxas> I would advise to all of you to get Regardie's
Garden of Pomegranates, it throws a lot of light on this
chapter
<Ringo_X> a rose is a rose
<Solar-ny> I think AC's explaining that we all need to
generate our own QBL,as this discussion illustrates
<ADM> they can carry you up to the abyss but not into it
<Serpente> thank you Solar-ny, good point
<abraxas> true
<Ringo_X> we all carry round our own tree, microcosm/macr
ocosm
<shoe93> ab- agreed, its a good book for those of us not
mathmatically inclined or easily distracted, at least for me
<Serpente> which possibly leads to ACs next bold
statement:
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 8: All discussions upon philosophy
are necessarily sterile, since truth is beyond language.
They are, however, useful if carried far enough --- if
carried to the point when it become
<Serpente> apparent that all arguments are arguments in
a circle.
<Solar-ny> You are the center of your universe
<ADM> as corwley mentione d in footnoe one on page five
"by god I mean the ideal identity of a man's inmost
nature"
<abraxas> when you realize that there is not absolute
truth, but that everything depends on your interpretation
* theurj circles around like a vulture.
<Ringo_X> nod ADM
<ADM> crowley and footnote even, god my spelling sucks
<Ringo_X> bolds a duble barelled term
<theurj> so only a microcosm without a macrocosm?
<Serpente> So we use mathmatics not so much because it
"is" true but because it provides the purest symbolic
language with which to express our selves and organise
our experiences
<DeadFish> well, when you realize that, do you take that
as absolute, that there is no absolute?
<abraxas> right
<abraxas> I guess not
<ADM> and once we get ourselves organized and such we
can handle the really spooky scary things like the abyss
<theurj> smacks of solipcism..
<entropia> hey Dagon
<abraxas> the reason why you cannot get any further, is
that here we are using Ruach
<ADM> which starts with questions like Deadfish is asking:)
<Ringo_X> it is theurj :)
<Dagon> hey ent, hows they hanging
<DeadFish> ADM: and those lines of questionings are a
patio of FUN, imho
<Aleister> theurj, so?
<ADM> i agree heartily DF:)
<entropia> they's hanging
<DeadFish> of course, such questionings, regretfully, can
come to resolution if you accept that there is an unknown.
<Serpente> it looks like solipsism only because we are
trying to explain an internal point of view I think
<abraxas> philosophers have showed how reason is
inadequate in search for thruth
<Dagon> perkerly i hope :)
<Ringo_X> I've assumed that concepts such as 1 or two
are hardwired at a very deep leel
<ADM> which brings us to the next topic (drum roll please)
<abraxas> also this is another distinction b/w Yoga and
Magick
* Serpente smiles
<DeadFish> abraxas: for example, descartes... i'm sure he
didn't INTEND to show how reason was inept at
displaying truth, but he used reason, and he was inept,
so...
<Serpente> <*> The next section is titled "FURTHER
CONCERNING THE MAGICAL UNIVERSE"
<ADM> we missed one didn't we serpente
<Ringo_X> haha df
<Serpente> hmm let me see
<ADM> i.e "all discussions upon philosophy are necessarily
sterile"
<Serpente> oh yeah I sent that one out
<Aleister> the footnote on that one is important
<Ringo_X> thats the banner which we should fly above this
channel ;)
<Aleister> imho
<DeadFish> OOo... sunday night.. no one left in the office..
its NAKED TIME
<Serpente> anyone want to paste the foot note in?
<Inconnu> derek, i worry about you sometimes.
<Ilios> "To Fos tou Theou as fotisei tis kardies sas" - -Love
is the law- Bye all ... Interesting chat, but I have to go ...
<ADM> DOH! you did serpente, i missed in the scroll
<Serpente> thanks for coming Ilios
<Aleister> or in #philosophy
<Ilios> 93 ;)
<theurj> bye
<theurj> ilios
<Inconnu> ent, want to give us a snap translation?
<Serpente> OK next Crowley takes us to a finer level of
abstraction
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 9: Now there is a traditional
correspondence, which modern experiment has shown to
be fairly reliable. There is a certain natural connexion
between certain letters, words, numbers,
<Serpente> gestures, shapes, perfumes and so on, so that
any idea or (as we might call it) "spirit", may be composed
or called forth by the use of those things which are
harmonious with it, and express particular
<Serpente> parts of its nature.
<Inconnu> i think that was something like "the light of God
and the light of the heart are the same"
<ADM> hey! we are up to the "bash Fr Achad!" chapter of
this chapter!
<Ringo_X> 'the yod is uncovered' footnote and it's
explantion in the new ed. is v. interesting
<Aleister> the apparatus of human reason is simply one
particular system of coordinating impressions; its
structure is determined by the course of evolution of the
species
<ADM> SECTION of this chapter, sheesh learn to type
ADM:)
<Aleister> it is no more absolute than the mechanism of
our muscles is a complete type wherewith all other
systems of transmitting force must compete
<abraxas> for that, try reading Soldier and...
<Ringo_X> not absolute, but the best we've got, up to the
abyss
<abraxas> and qabalah tries to raise our Ruach to
Nechamah
<Ringo_X> is that a nihilistic conception?
<ADM> and crowley seems to be saying the only way we
get our Ruach up to Nechamah is by working the Ruach
a lot not just abandoning it out of hand
<abraxas> true
<Inconnu> thats sort of the rationalle of jnana yoga.
exercise the intelect until it consumes itself
<abraxas> twisting our Ruach around,until it transcends
itself
<theurj> Sort of a Zen thing, to use reason to get beyond
it?
<Ringo_X> using it, to discover it's own limitations
<abraxas> or like zen koans
<abraxas> right
<Inconnu> rehi bk
<ADM> right, or exhaust your brain so it will quit getting in
the way of your soul
* Solar-ny had a wonderful evening and wants to thank the
moderators for their efforts. I must go now. 93 93/93
<abraxas> and transcend them eventually
<Serpente> ok this does lead to the next bold statment:
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 10: Of course, as the student
advances in knowledge by experience he will find a
progressive subtlety in the magical universe
corresponding to his own; for let it be said yet again!
<Serpente> not only is his aura a magical mirror of the
universe, but the universe is a magical mirror of his aura.
<abraxas> different approach is taken in Raja Yoga
<abraxas> 93 93/93 solar
<ADM> as above so below?
<theurj> ah, the macrocosm at last!
<Ringo_X> wheeeew!
<theurj> there is a God! ;)
<Serpente> by now this probably is a familiar statement to
everyone, "as above so below" and so on
<abraxas> right
<Ringo_X> haha!
<ADM> YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR MACROCOSM UNTIL
YOU HAVE FINISHED YOUR MICROCOSM!!! HOW
MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU NO DESERT
TILL YOU HAVE EATEN YOUR VEGETABLES!!:)
<abraxas> however, in the beginning we don't notice that
<Brmhilda> :)
<Serpente> lol
<Serpente> I find his use of the word "aura" interesting
here
<Ringo_X> a restatement of Nuit-Hadit-RHK
<Ringo_X> yes, Serp
* theurj distastefully eats his Microcosm..
<theurj> ewwww!
<Dagon> oh thers surpose to be a difrrece between the 2.
<Inconnu> *giggle*
<abraxas> there must be a reason why he used aura
instead of something else
<Abraxas0> Hello all
<Inconnu> ab: vocabulary of his era i suppose.
<abraxas> 93 triki
<theurj> aura ya listening?
<abraxas> 93 ab
<Serpente> how would we define the concept of an aura in
this context, our sphere of sensation perhaps? our
awareness?
<TrikiW> mm abraxas
<Inconnu> that and the fact that the etheric mediates the
microcosm and macrocosm
<TrikiW> mm all :)
<Abraxas0> 93 other ab
<abraxas> inconnu, I kind of doubt it
<foog> hello
<Abraxas0> what is the talk of the day
<Serpente> INconnu can you say more what you mean by
that?
<theurj> I like the idea of aura as "mediator."
<abraxas> yes, perhaps that which separates us from
macrocosm
<Aleister> i doubt that inc, by that time in his career, he
had meaning for every term he used, far as i can tell
<Satiel> 93 93/93 all good discussion :) thanks
<DeadFish> worry about me? but i'm the SANEST
PERSON YOU KNOW
* DeadFish has returned, incidentally
<Ringo_X> maybe it's used to include all of what we are,
etheric and all that
<Inconnu> sometimes the "etheric" is seen as a membrane
between the yetziratic and asiah since it is traditionally
held to be what mediates the astological influences of
the macrocosm on the particular entity
* shoe93 would faint if she met a sane person
* foog is not only sane, but perfectly normal.
<Inconnu> dead, that you are. and nubile too.
<ADM> the use of the mirror imagery kinda reminds me of
the gnostic idea of the mirror boundry between our fake
little world and the real world of the divine
* Inconnu gets shoe the smelling salts
* shoe93 fainting
<abraxas> adm, but the real is not only outside
<Aleister> does kether in some sense represent the
macrocosm and malkuth in some sense represent the
microcosm?
<abraxas> read crowley's comments about Khabs and Khu
<ADM> righto abraxas, and we reflect it not just the other
way round
<theurj> and Tiphareth the mediator?
<DeadFish> well, that's nice and all, but i tend to stay away
from the business of "this world is FAKE, but our secret
SPECIAL world is REAL" busines
<abraxas> in a sense
<ADM> right, crowley has kinda turned that around
<Ringo_X> yes df, we may as well kilsl ouselves
* theurj fakes it..
<Abraxas0> I agree Dead
<Sham69> do you guys have a alphabet of theban,enochian
,malachian,ect...?????????????????????????????
<Abraxas0> If this world is fake than what does that make
us?
<Inconnu> illusions.
<DeadFish> Sham: i'm fairly certain none of those
alphabets consist entirely of punctuation marks.
<abraxas> both are real in their own planes
<theurj> real fakes?
<Inconnu> i waffle on this particular philosophical point
<Abraxas0> But illusions are real in there own sense
<Dagon> Get a litle maya in your life, its the only thing
keeping you here.
<Ringo_X> It's been a blast ppl, but I'm off
* shoe93 is reminded of her reality every time she stubs her
toe
<Inconnu> its roulette whether i'm a platonist or an
aristotelian on a given day :)
<Serpente> thanks for coming Ringo
<Ringo_X> 93 93/93
<Abraxas0> hehe
<Serpente> at any rate I find this Aura=Mirror concept
fascinating
<Serpente> we're getting close to the end of the chapter
<theurj> "The man in the mirror, he keeps getting nearer,
but I am not moving."
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 11: We know infinitesimally little of
the material universe. Our detailed knowledge is so
contemptibly minute, that it is hardly worth reference,
save that our shame may spur us
<Serpente> to increased endeavour. Such knowledge as
we have got is of a very general and abstruse, of a
philosophical and almost magical character. This consists
principally of the conceptions of pure mathematics.
<Serpente> It is, therefore, almost legitimate to say that
pure mathematics is our link with the rest of the universe
and with "God".
<abraxas> you guys are mixing planes here
<abraxas> 93 ringo
<DeadFish> hmm.
<DeadFish> i'd have to argue the logic of that.
<Abraxas0> So - say the entire world is a fake and so is
the universe - what are we to do about it?
<ADM> I think it's kinda like those M.c. eshcer drawings
where each things defines the other thing, the aura
reflects the universe which reflects the aura which etc
etc etc
<abraxas> I think that it has to do with Golden Dawn
concepts
<theurj> math is the link to God...
<DeadFish> "our logic is very limited, so in being limited,
we should ignore it and turn to some other universe-referri
ng knowledge-system and think it's better"
* Inconnu listens to the spectre of Pythagoras clomping
around the room
<theurj> so math is the mirror/aura?
<Abraxas0> It could be true that we are all brains in a jar
recieving stimuli through wires to make us think that we
exist!
<abraxas> all our knowledge is of a=a type
<DeadFish> Abraxas0: perhaps, does it makemuch
difference?
<shoe93> abraxax0- i read a short story about that once!
hehehe
<Abraxas0> It is all we can understand
<theurj> Pythagoras' soul is in a lima bean! ;)
<abraxas> 93 nipper
<Abraxas0> EXACTLY my point
<DeadFish> whether this is real or an illusion, we do what
we can to make the illusion as good as possible
<Serpente> I think Crowley is saying here than all systems
are false, and only true in so much as they are useful
<Abraxas0> it doesn't make a difference
<Abraxas0> but yet we chose to try to understnad
<abraxas> remember next time you do your algebra
homework, theurj
<Abraxas0> But is there one truth?
<DeadFish> Abraxas0: possibly.
<Dagon> William Jmaes defined truth in that way as well
<Abraxas0> I have a hypothetical story to tell
<DeadFish> Abraxas0: or, another answer is, Yes, there is
one truth. in fact, there's quite a few
<Serpente> he hedges it by saying it is 'almost legitamate'
:)
<Abraxas0> One day a man meets a genie
<abraxas> I think that we are demonstrating here how our
knowledge is basically limited
<ADM> DF, note he doesn't say "ignore what little we
have", he says "look at the limits of our knowledge and
be aware of them"
<Abraxas0> The genie grants him three wishes
<abraxas> true
<DeadFish> ADM: ah. my mistake.. i was misinterpreting
the bit about "so minute as to be negligable"
<Abraxas0> The first wish the guy makes is to be able to
control what happens in his dreams
<Abraxas0> So this goes on for awile until the guy gets
bored
<Abraxas0> He always wins
<theurj> interesting discussion, but must feel this illusion
of a body with illusory sleep to get up to my illusory job.
<Abraxas0> Say he fights a dragon
<Serpente> thanks for coming theurj
<theurj> nytol
<shoe93> well all I wish I could stick around, but I must
leave, it was very educational, i know cause my head
hurts now. :) 93 93/93
<Inconnu> night shoe!
<Erp> hmmmmm still discussing MTP?
<Serpente> well we have one final topic
<ADM> Deadfish:he's seems to be saying that of our forms
of klnowldege the msot mathematical and general seem
to be the only ones that are able to say anyhting
meaningful bout the world we liv, so we should model our
magick on them
<Abraxas0> it is not exciting because he knows he will win
<Abraxas0> So eventually he tells the genie to make it so
that he doesn't allways win
<Abraxas0> Now it is more exciting!
<abraxas> 93 93/93 shoe
<DeadFish> ADM: interesting.
<ADM> "the method of science, the aim of religon"
<Abraxas0> But the guy doesn't like waking up anymore
<Abraxas0> he is more happy in his dream world
<abraxas> btw, I have experienced deep meditations
couple of times just by discussing about qabalah and
illusion of our reasons
<Abraxas0> So eventually he tells the genie to make it so
that he doesn't wake up and doesn't remember his real
world
<DeadFish> there are many, (including amathematics
professor of mine) who maintain that the perfection of
mathematics is due largely to it being a closed system,
concerned primarily with itself, and NOT the outside world
* Erp frowns at quoting and dissapears... he just found his
'34 copy of MTP the other day, a friend borrowed, and
returned but didnt' tell where he put it.
<Abraxas0> THIS could be what happened to any one of us
<Abraxas0> and that person is just immagining the rest of
the world to be there
<Aleister> godel demonstrated that all human symbol
systems must be incomplete and/or paradoxical
<abraxas> again see Soldier...
<Abraxas0> And that is why we cannot understand the
universe because it may always be part of a larger one.
<foog> no, al
<ADM> deadfish:exactly! you can form a perfectly workable
geometry from basically any premises
<abraxas> Crowley combines scepticism and meditation in
his system
<foog> he demonstrated that any system complex enough
to do arithmetic had that property. :)
<abraxas> Ruach and Nechamah
<Abraxas0> Now that I have finished my story I must be
leaving
<foog> simpler systems need not
<abraxas> 93 93/93 ab
<DeadFish> Abraxas: well, by definition, there can't be
anything but the Universe.
<Serpente> thanks for coming abraxas0
<Abraxas0> But our universe may not be the one that truly
exists
<Abraxas0> bye all
<nipper> abraxas0: good story, tnx
<DeadFish> if another thing, same as what we call the
universe except apparently seperate, the definition of
universe will expand to include it.. our galaxy, quite
recently, was thought to be the entire universe.. now that
we've discovered more galaxies, we don't
<Aleister> excuse me foog, i dropped the qualifier
'non-trivial'
<abraxas> which brings us to last topic
<DeadFish> consider them more universes
<Serpente> yes
<Serpente> <*> TOPIC 12: Solvitur ambulando which does
not mean: "Call the Ambulance!"
<abraxas> but means solve the problems as they come
<DeadFish> i assume it means "Salvator is Ambulatory"...
referring to Dali's ability to walk
<Serpente> this is Latin for "it is solved by walking" i.e. in
practice.
<abraxas> in other words, don't sit and argue here, but
rather do some Work, like Great Work
<Aleister> i should have pointed out the correspondence
between this chapter and the XXI trump
<abraxas> no, it is 0 trump
<ADM> Hey! watch you keep that talk up and you'll start
believeing frater achad:)
<Serpente> since all such models are flawed and
arguments meaningless, we have to find out by doing the
experiements and discovering for ourselves
<foog> al: the qualifier "human" is also debatable :)
<Aleister> brax, the 0 trump is the fool
<Aleister> the XXI trump is 'the universe'
<abraxas> yes, al
<abraxas> but this chapter corresponds to Fool
<ADM> It is atributiable to whatever trump you stick with
the path from malkuth up to yesod, IMHO
<DeadFish> well, flawed, but not necessarily meaningless...
their meaning is just dependant on certian conditions
<ADM> or actually from malkuth up to Hod more likely
<Inconnu> speaking of...i have ritual work i need to be
doing
<Aleister> brax, the title of the chapter is, 'the magickal
theory of the universe'
<abraxas> 93 93/93 in
<Inconnu> so i bid you all good night
<abraxas> yes, but Fool is 0, which is also universe
<ADM> bye inconnu
<Serpente> goodnight inconnu
<DeadFish> and inconnu, i shall bid you a fondue
<Serpente> <*> That concludes the guided part of our
discussion tonight. Thank you all for attending, and feel
free to continue :) Our next discussion on Chapter I - The
Principles of Ritual will be
<Serpente> announced on the Undernet Thelema home
page at:
<Bkwyrm> Bye, Inconnu.
<Serpente> <*> http://www.winternet.com/~robin/thelema.ht
ml
<Serpente> <*> We hope you have found this an interesting
experience and thank you for your contributions.
<Serpente> <*> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the
Law. Love is the law, love under will.