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Session Start: Tue Apr 22 20:29:48 1997
<Serpente> <*> On behalf of the users of Undernet Channel #Thelema, allow me to
extend a hearty welcome to all.
<abrasax> fourfold word
<entropia> four letter name of god
<entropia> in hebrew
<Serpente> <*> The topic for tonights discussion is Chapter III of Magick in Theory
and Practice, The Formulae of Tetragrammaton.
<Serpente> <*> You may find the text at http://www.winternet.com/~robin/magick03.html
we recommend that you bring the text up on your web browser now before we begin
so that you may refer to it.
<Xiphias> (I figured it was a starting point)
<Serpente> oh we're high tech
<MasterBen> I merely said that the roast was good enough for YHVH...
* Aleister bangs his shin
<Serpente> <*> IRC is a difficult medium to hold discussions of a complex nature so
we would like to ask that everyone remain focused on the topic at hand to help us
avoid distractions.
<Serpente> <*> The format of the discussion is unmoderated. Rather than lecture, our
hope is to encourage everyone to contribute so that we may all learn from each
others perspectives and welcome all
<Serpente> contributions.
<Serpente> this is all canned stuff
<Serpente> <*> If you would like more information on a topic that comes up, bring it
up after the discussion and we will try to help you find further resources if
possible.
<Serpente> <*> Since this chapter is rather short I have loaded it in its entirety
into the quoting program. You can request to be served paragraphs by messaging me
with a message in the format pN where
<Serpente> N is the paragraph number. These introductory remarks are paragraphs p0
through p8. Message me if you would like more information on the quote program.
<Serpente> <*> We will begin in a couple of minutes with the first paragraph.
<Serpente> <*> CHAPTER III
<Serpente> <*> THE FORMULA OF TETRAGRAMMATON.
<Serpente> and the footnote:
<Serpente> <*> Yod, He, Vau, He, the Ineffable Name (Jehovah) of the Hebrews. The
four letters refer respectively to the four "elements", Fire, Water, Air, Earth,
in the order named.
<Serpente> <*> This formula is of most universal aspect, as all things are
necessarily comprehended in it; but its use in a magical ceremony is little
understood.
<abrasax> are you gonna add more or can we start
<Serpente> Now this seems like an odd statement, as I would have thought this
formula was one of the most widely used
<abrasax> I think that Crowley is talking of IHVH as applied to magician's whole
career
<Xiphias> depends on how its used
<Aleister> just because it is used, does not mean al thought they understood what
they were doing
<Serpente> perhaps though I think the formula has gained more recent popularity
since Regardie
<abrasax> also all things are comrehended in it, remember how IHVH can be seen as
Tree of Life
<Serpente> good point too Aleister :)
<Xiphias> I'm apt to agree with Aleister, but on the other hand, it may mean that
they merely used it differently than Crowley used it
<Aleister> i seem to recall it being prominent in the seals of solomon?
<Xiphias> abra, hmm, countenance theory or the worlds/
<Serpente> Regardie popularised his Watchtower ritual which makes extensive
reference to it
<abrasax> also one thing that is usually forgotten is Shin
<Aleister> or are my synapses slipping again?
<Xiphias> its inclusive in the HOGD system in their ritual formula
<Serpente> not sure Aleister, I'm not really up on that topic
<Xiphias> Abra, thats a different formula....
<Serpente> true but perhaps the neophyte formula was more emphasised in the hogd
<Xiphias> that would be the pentagrammaton, not the tetra....
<Aleister> my point was, if it is prominant in seals of solomon, then it was
extensively used before
<Serpente> for instance the Z documents are all based on the 0=0
<Xiphias> Serp, true.
<Xiphias> Well, we can establish two things:
<Xiphias> 1)Crowley didn't think they were using it properly
<Xiphias> or 2)Crowley was using it differently.
<Xiphias> later in the chapter you get an inferance of how Crowley used it or
interpreted it, the little pervert
<Drwygg> or it's still "little understood", as in, meditate on it,...
<Serpente> <*> The climax of the formula is in one sense before even the formulation
of the Yod. For the Yod is the most divine aspect of the Force --- the remaining
letters are but a solidification
<Serpente> of the same thing. It must be understood that we are here speaking of the
whole ceremony considered as a unity, not merely of that formula in which "Yod"
is the god invoked, "He" the Archangel, and so
<Serpente> on. In order to understand the ceremony under this formula, we must take
a more extended view of the functions of the four weapons than we have hitherto
done.
<Xiphias> DRW, true enough...but somehow the way he writes isn't pointing to that:)
<Serpente> What does he mean by the first sentence I wonder
<abrasax> well, climax is the highest point
<abrasax> and once the formula IHVH starts working, it's not going up, but rather
down toward material
<Xiphias> BRB
<Serpente> I can certainly see that, I'm wondering why he says the climax is in one
sense before the Yod
<entropia> because all that is *is* and saying it is always intrinsically after the
fact
<entropia> the thought energy behind the words activates before the words can be
uttered
<Aleister> because the result is impied in your will before you start the operation?
* Serpente nods
<abrasax> cause even the formation of yod is materialization in a sense
<Drwygg> i still like the painfully simple explaination that it is the sound of the
human breath,,...as in we are always invoking it,..
<MasterBen> What relevance does hebrew gematria really have to Khemetic group such
as thelemites.
<Serpente> Ben probably because they've found it useful?
<entropia> uncle al was not known for his purism
<MasterBen> Yes, but useful in what way? Why are we empowering all of those Hebre
thought-forms?
<MasterBen> Hebrew
<abrasax> well, Crowley seemed to switch to greek qabalah
<Drwygg> *nod*, Ben,..was just thinking this,..
<abrasax> as he was working with AL
<abrasax> just look at Liber XXV
<Aleister> i recall crowley speaking of hebrew as an expression of superhuman
consciousness
<Serpente> perhaps because they reflect certain more or less universal aspects
<Serpente> based on numbers and correspondences
<entropia> nice hat, Ben
<MastrBen^> Thanks! It says "Cubs" on it, real small.
<Serpente> the four fold division and elemental weapons lead directly to
tetragrammaton as a logical formula of manifestation dont you think?
<Drwygg> was Hebrew was a 'planned' alphabet/language? planned to incorporate all
these forms, ideas, and 'universal aspects'?
* entropia^ doesn't *think* the hebrew alphabet was planned
<MastrBen^> Perhaps. But no moreso that the pythagorean triad.
<Drwygg> fair,..
<Aleister> Idries Shah has implied similar claims for Arabic
<abrasax> we seem to be drifting toward chapter 0 discussion
<Drwygg> so all the many correspondences were an after thought,....sounds good,..
<entropia^> I think you can fit any set of symbols into any thought paradigm
<Serpente> at any rate whatever sets of divisions you use or systems of symbols you
still end up with the potential for a formula such as this one
<Aleister> psychoanalysis has shown that we use meanings we are not consciously
aware of
<StCrispin> 93 all.
<Marhaens> 93s
<Serpente> 93 crispin, marhaens
<abrasax> greets marhaens
<abrasax> 93 stcrispin
<StCrispin> whats the chat?
<Serpente> we are discussion Tetragrammaton
<abrasax> marhaens actually greeted with 93??
<entropia^> and, after all, we're discussing the formula itself, not debating it's
validity.. I'm correct in thinking that's assumed for this discussion, serp?
<Aleister> symbolism is to a large degree arbitrary, but i would say that many of
the meanings were already present latently in the minds of those who began the
language
<Serpente> Agreed abrasax
<Serpente> lets continue with the next bit of text
<Serpente> <*> The formation of the "Yod" is the formulation of the first creative
force, of that father who is called "self-begotten", and unto whom it is said:
"Thou has formulated thy Father, and
<Serpente> made fertile thy Mother". The adding of the "He" to the "Yod" is the
marriage of that Father to the great co-equal Mother, who is a reflection of Nuit
as He is of Hadit. Their union brings forth the son
<Serpente> "Vau" who is the heir. Finally the daughter "He" is produced. She is both
the twin sister and the daughter of "Vau".
<abrasax> what a nice family
<Serpente> If Heh final is the daugther of Vau who is her mother?
<abrasax> of course they are Nuit, Hadit, Ra-Hoor-Khuit(or Therion),
Hoor-paar-kraat(or Babalon)
<abrasax> heh final is not daughter of Vau
<entropia^> party hats
<entropia^> oops
<Drwygg> new aeon sheep,.....see ya's,.. ; )
<abrasax> heh final is rather twin/shadow of Vau
<Serpente> ok good enough then
<Serpente> <*> There is a further mystery herein, far deeper, for initiates.
<Serpente> ahh
<Serpente> <*> His mission is to redeem her by making her his bride; the result of
this is to set her upon the throne of her mother, and it is only she whose
youthful embrace can reawaken the eld of
<Serpente> the All-Father. In this complex family relationship
<Serpente> <*> The formula of Tetragrammaton, as ordinarily understood, ending with
the appearance of the daughter, is indeed a degradation.
<Serpente> ok that was a foot note)
<Serpente> <*> is symbolised the whole course of the Universe. It will be seen that
(after all) the Climax is at the end. It is the second half of the formula which
symbolises the Great Work which we
<Serpente> are pledged to accomplish. The first step of this is the attainment of
the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel, which constitutes the
Adept of the Inner Order. The re-entry of these
<Serpente> twin spouses into the womb of the mother is that initiation described in
Liber 418, which gives admission to the Inmost Order of the A.'. A.'. Of the last
step we cannot speak.
<abrasax> so we need to add some Grantian reversal formula
<Marhaens> re
<abrasax> re
<Serpente> now whats this about He final reawakening the eld
<Serpente> whats an eld?
<abrasax> this can also be viewed at as sexmagic formula
<entropia^> elder
<entropia^> ?
<abrasax> yod serp
<abrasax> ancient ones?
<Serpente> ah ok so the Heh final reawakens the original Yod impulse
<Aleister> everything can be viewed as a sex magick formula if you are inclined to
do so
* entropia^ is so inclined
<abrasax> but this is sexmagickal formula
<abrasax> crowley used it in Liber XXXVI
<abrasax> even his homosexual workings are actually I+V formula
<abrasax> but there are 4 heterosexual formulas
<Serpente> actually the lag isnt bad, we're all just speechless I think
<Serpente> :)
* entropia^ nods
<MastrBen^> Speechless or distracted
<Serpente> hehe well if I was in the same room as entropia I might be disctracted
too ;)
<MastrBen^> tee hee
<Aleister> hmm, we might finish unexpectedly early tonight
<Aleister> and the class may end, too
<entropia^> I'm showing him bikini tops
<Serpente> well we can just keep going
<Serpente> <*> It will now be recognised that to devise a practical magical ceremony
to correspond to Tetragrammaton in this exalted sense might be difficult if not
impossible. In such a ceremony the
<Serpente> Rituals of purification alone might occupy many incarnations.
<entropia^> yes, let's skip on
<Serpente> <*> It will be necessary, therefore, to revert to the simpler view of
Tetragrammaton, remembering only that the "He" final is the Throne of the Spirit,
of the Shin of Pentagrammaton.
<Serpente> ok that will do for use mere mortals
<Serpente> <*> The Yod will represent a swift and violent creative energy; following
this will be a calmer and more reflective but even more powerful flow of will,
the irresistible force of a mighty
<Serpente> river. This state of mind will be followed by an expansion of the
consciousness; it will penetrate all space, and this will finally undergo a
crystallization resplendent with interior light. Such modifications
<Serpente> of the original Will may be observed in the course of the invocations
when they are properly performed.
<MastrBen^> I need to sign out and free one of the two telephones in the house.
Later, friends!
<Serpente> Interesting to see how 'chaos magick' with all its huffing and puffing
about new ways to do magick probably owes most of its content to this paragraph ;)
<Serpente> 93 Ben!
<StCrispin> re
<abrasax> re
<Serpente> re cripsin, 93
<Serpente> well we seem to have tuckered out a bit ;)
<abrasax> any particular reason why heh final is the throne of spirit
<Aleister> because we are material beings ?
<Aleister> and regarding it as such brings spirit to us?
<abrasax> perhaps
<Serpente> perhaps there is something about the idea that the earth being a blend of
the other mother elements forms a kind of microcosm in itself
<DeadFish> Heya boogie
<Serpente> <*> The peculiar dangers of each are obvious --- that of the first is a
flash in the pan --- a misfire; that of the second, a falling into dreaminess or
reverie; that of the third, loss of
<Serpente> concentration. A mistake in any of these points will prevent, or injure
the proper formation of, the fourth.
<Marhaens> ab: i think he's using 'throne of spirit' as an appelation of the shekinah
<Astaroth> 93/93
<abrasax> 93 astaroth
<Astaroth> Hey entropia, wassup!?, Long time, no see
<Serpente> Marhaens can you explain what you mean by shekinah
<Serpente> hey acidd ;)
<entropia^> 93 ast!
<MNTR> Love is the law
<abrasax> 93 MNTR
<MNTR> 93 to you all ...
<Marhaens> afk
<Serpente> well we've probably exhausted our topic for tonight
<Serpente> <*> In the expression which will be used in Chapter XV: "Enflame
thyself", etc., only the first stage is specified; but if that is properly done
the other stages will follow as if by necessity.
<Serpente> So far is it written concerning the formula of Tetragrammaton.
<entropia^> it is a short chapter :-)
<abrasax> yup
<abrasax> that's so that we can relax and get ready for the next one
* Astaroth feels as though he missed something good
<entropia^> you did, ast
<Serpente> <*> That concludes our discussion tonight. Thank you for attending.
<Serpente> <*> Our next discussion is scheduled for Tuesday April 29nd at 9PM
Eastern Daylight Time on Chapter IV - THE FORMULA OF ALHIM, AND THAT OF ALIM.
<entropia^> but there'll be another one soon, right serp?
<Serpente> yep
<Serpente> we aught to do a little better PR though
<Astaroth> Yeah, but I'll miss that one too
<Astaroth> I have to work
<Serpente> I was thinking about a note to t93 list
<Astaroth> entropia, will you log it for me?
<abrasax> that would be a good idea
<entropia^> I quit reading the 93 list cause I got tired of filtering through dreck
to get to the meat
<Serpente> yup
<entropia^> ast: unless I forget to be here, I will log it... I've also got
tonight's logs if you're interested
<Serpente> but it will catch the eyes of a few ladies and gents
<Serpente> <*> Logs of our previous discussion are availabe on the Undernet
#Thelema home page at:
<entropia^> yes, better than nothing
<MNTR> Hmm, talk about bad timing ... The word of law is THELEMA.
<Serpente> <*> http://www.winternet.com/~robin/thelema.html
<Astaroth> yeah, I'm interested
<entropia^> maybe on a newsgroup as well
<Serpente> <*> We hope you have found this an interesting experience and thank you
for your contributions.
<Serpente> <<*> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law,
love under will.
Session Close: Tue Apr 22 21:31:20 1997