[Home]

Session Start: Tue Apr 29 20:15:54 1997

* Logging #thelema to: [#thelema.log]

<Serpente> <*> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, 

   love under will.

<Serpente> <*> On behalf of the users of Undernet Channel #Thelema, allow me to 

   extend a hearty welcome to all.

<Serpente> <*> The topic for tonights discussion is Chapter IV of Magick in Theory 

   and Practice, The Formulae of ALHIM and That of ALIM.

<Serpente> <*> You may find the text at http://www.winternet.com/~robin/magick04.htm

   l if you would like to bring it up on your web browser before we begin so that 

   you may refer to it.

<Serpente> <*> IRC is a difficult medium to hold discussions of a complex nature so 

   we would like to ask that everyone remain focused on the topic at hand to help us 

   avoid distractions.

<Serpente> <*> The format of the discussion is unmoderated, our hope is to 

   encourage everyone to contribute so that we may all learn from each others 

   perspectives and welcome all contributions.

<Serpente> <*> Since this chapter is rather short I have loaded it in its entirety 

   into the quoting program. You can request to be served paragraphs by messaging me 

   with a message in the format pN where

<Serpente> N is the paragraph number. These introductory remarks are paragraphs p0 

   through p7. Message me if you would like more information on the quote program.

<Astarte93> ::::trying to catch up!:::

<Serpente> <*> We will begin in a a minute with the first paragraph of the text.

<Serpente> <*> CHAPTER IV.

<Serpente> <*> THE FORMULA OF ALHIM, AND THAT OF ALIM.

<Serpente> <*> "ALHIM", (Elohim) is the exoteric word for Gods.

<Serpente> <*> FOOTNOTE : "Gods" are the Forces of Nature; their "Names" are the 

   Laws of Nature. Thus They are eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and so on; and 

   thus their "Wills" are immutable and absolute.

<Serpente> <*> It is the masculine plural of a feminine noun, but its nature is 

   principally feminine.

<Serpente> <*> FOOTNOTE : It represents Sakti,or Teh; femininity always means form, 

   manifestation. The masculine Siva, or Tao, is always a concealed force.

<Serpente> I suppose this must just be obvious ;)

<Serpente> <*> It is a perfect hieroglyph of the number 5. This should be studied 

   in "A Note on Genesis" (Equinox I, II).

<Astarte93> We could discuss why its nature is principally feminine

<Serpente> Any ideas on that?

* Astarte93 can't remember the last time she peeked at Equinox

<Astarte93> 93 M7

<m7a7g7i> 93 :)

<aleister> i have been hearing from various sources for many years that elohim is 

   feminine and plural

<Astarte93> I was under the impression it was neutral...

<Astarte93> but referred to as feminine

<Serpente> Its Hebrew language gender is feminine I believe

<Astarte93> As Serp/ Uncle Al said, due to its "nature"

<tannhaus> yes..something such as Eloah is singular, feminine

<Astarte93> (passive, vs active, I presume)

<chngadero> Are we talking about ancient hebrew or the reconstructed form in use 

   since the middle ages (based on aramaic)

<Lainie> Elohim is a masculine rendering of a feminine noun.

<Serpente> but I assume there is something about its use as a magickal formula that 

  ties into the statement about its being feminine

<Astarte93> if we're talking OT Hebrew I suppose we're talking ancient, chng

<chngadero> k

*** Astarte93 sets mode: +o m7a7g7i

<Serpente> ALHIM is in the first sentence of the book of Genesis

*** chngadero is now known as Shemhazai

<Magpie> why is feminine the manifestation but the hidden form is always masculine? 

   or is my immediate interpretation just too blatant... hmmm.

<Astarte93> oh, it's you Shemmie

<Serpente> In the beginning [ALHIM] created etc..

*** rlM (mink1@ppp-40.ts-5.nyc.idt.net) has joined #thelema

<m7a7g7i> 93 rlm

<Serpente> I suppose as in nature it is the feminine that gives birth

<Astarte93> re what you said earlier Serp, I think it's the creative aspect that 

   makes it important to be feminine

* Magpie grins

<Astarte93> oop, you beat me

<rlM> what if ur "ANDROGInis"?

<Serpente> lets continue..

<Serpente> <*> The Elements are all represented, as in Tetragrammaton, but there is 

   no development from one into the others. They are, as it were, thrown together 

   --- untamed, only sympathising by virtue

<Serpente> of their wild and stormy but elastically resistless energy. The Central 

   letter is "He" --- the letter of breath --- and represents Spirit. The first 

   letter "Aleph" is the natural letter of Air, and the

<Serpente> Final "Mem" is the natural letter of Water. Together, "Aleph" and "Mem" 

   make "Am" --- the mother within whose womb the Cosmos is conceived. But "Yod" is 

   not the natural letter of Fire. Its juxtaposition

<Serpente> with "He" sanctifies that fire to the "Yod" of Tetragrammaton. Similarly 

   we find "Lamed" for Earth, where we should expect Tau --- in order to emphasize 

   the influence of Venus, who rules Libra.

<Magpie> and the masculine addition to the act of getting pregnant is what, 

   somewhat... mysterious?

<rlM> WHAT BRAINWASHING!   haqha

<rlM> ur weak

<Serpente> Magpie maybe not so mysterious, but certainly of a different nature

<rlM> bullshit the kids more!

*** rlM (mink1@ppp-40.ts-5.nyc.idt.net) has left #thelema

<Shemhazai> d00d <h1/_/_

* Serpente chuckles

<m7a7g7i> :)

* Astarte93 wonders what was up rIM's ass

<Astarte93> Anyway...

<m7a7g7i> A crucifix....

<Magpie> sorry, couldn't think of a word that denotes mysterious, secret, as in, not 

   easily seen... devious doesn't fit! 

<Serpente> Magpie, concealed maybe :)

<Magpie> ah, good word.

<Astarte93> Aum ha

<Astarte93> the paragraph you just quoted is probably the one that I least 

   understand, Serp

*** Shemhazai is now known as Shem_Ball

<Shem_Ball> I must roll

*** Shem_Ball has quit IRC (Leaving)

<Serpente> I agree

<Magpie> it makes sense, but the sentence structure on that last line stumps me.

<Serpente> Well he is comparing the primary elemental Hebrew letters with the 

  letters in ALHIM

<Magpie> "Similarly we find "Lamed" for Earth, where we should expect Tau --- in 

   order to emphasize the influence of Venus, who rules Libra." - which is that last 

   part referring to, Lamed, or Tau?

<Astarte93> It's the astrological correlations that lose me.... my weak point

<Serpente> Aleph and Mem are two of the three mother letters associatied with the 

  elements, Resh would be fire and Tau Earth in those sets or corespondences

<m7a7g7i> bye 93 all

<Magpie> that's not what I meant. in order to emphasize the influence of Venus, etc, 

   we should expect to find Tau ... ? ::confused::

<Serpente> IM sorry Shim is fire not Resh

<Serpente> Shin

<Astarte93> 93 Aine!

<Aine> 93 asty

<Serpente> 93 Aine, speaking of Resh

<Aine> 93 serp

<Serpente> I think he says we should expect to find Tau since Tau is normally Earth

<Magpie> I got that part - but Tau is the part that's Libra & all? - my 

   correspondances and all are terminally pathetic.

<Astarte93> that makes sense

<Serpente> whereas Lamed is Libra

<Astarte93> that was my stumbling block

<Magpie> ah, ok.

<Serpente> which is ruled by venus

<Astarte93> can anyone elaborate a little on what else is Libra?

<Magpie> ok, that's the only part that ever really confused me.

<Astarte93> same here, Magpie

<Astarte93> Libra anyone?

<Serpente> The Yod is fire but of a more sanctified nature, likewise I suppose Venus 

  is of different nature than earth while still feminine

<Serpente> <*> "ALHIM", therefore, represents rather the formula of Consecration 

   than that of a complete ceremony. It is the breath of benediction, yet so potent 

   that it can give life to clay and light

<Serpente> to darkness.

<Serpente> this makes sense I think in light of what was said

<Serpente> greetings sekretz

<Serpente> <*> In consecrating a weapon, "Aleph" is the whirling force of the 

   thunderbolt, the lightning which flameth out of the East even into the West. This 

   is the gift of the wielding of the thunderbolt

<Serpente> of Zeus or Indra, the god of Air. "Lamed" is the Ox-goad, the driving 

   force; and it is also the Balance, representing the truth and love of the 

   Magician. It is the loving care which he bestows upon perfecting

<Serpente> his instruments, and the equilibration of that fierce force which 

   initiates the ceremony.

<Astarte93> We can contrast that to Tetragrammaton

<Feydakin> Evening.

<Feydakin> Class?

<Aine> yes fey

<Serpente> 93 fey

<Aine> class

* Aine rofls

* Feydakin ews. 

<Feydakin> Then I was not called by anywhere from here, I suppose?

<Serpente> we need your knowledge

<Astarte93> we want you here though, Fey ;-)

<Feydakin> I have no knowledge. ;>

* Feydakin will hang around and be impolite now and then, though. ;>

<Astarte93> haahaa

<Serpente> no throwing tomatos

<Serpente> So alihm is a formula of consecration

<Serpente> here is the footnote to that paragraph..

<Serpente> <*> FOOTNOTE: The letters Aleph and Lamed are infinitely important in 

   this Aeon of Horus; they are indeed the Key of the Book of the Law. No more can 

   be said in this place than that Aleph

<Serpente> is Harpocrates, Bacchus Diphues, the Holy Ghost, the "Pure Fool" or 

   Innocent Babe who is also the Wandering Singer who impregnates the King's 

   Daughter with Himself as Her Child; Lamed is the King's Daughter,

<Serpente> satisfied by Him, holding His "Sword and Balances" in her lap. These 

   weapons are the Judge, armed with power to execute His Will, and Two Witnesses 

   "in whom shall every Truth be established" in accordance

<Serpente> with whose testimony he gives judgment.

* Magpie thumps her head and re-reads the last two lines

<Astarte93> so would you say ALHIM sort of = the Yod portion of Tetragrammaton, then?

<Serpente> would you say that astarte?

* Astarte93 wonders

<Serpente> <*> "Yod" is the creative energy -- the procreative power: and yet "Yod" 

   is the solitude and silence of the hermitage into which the Magician has shut 

   himself. "Mem" is the letter of water,

<Serpente> and it is the Mem final, whose long flat lines suggest the Sea at Peace 

   HB:Mem-final ; not the ordinary (initial and medial) Mem whose hieroglyph is a 

   wave HB:Mem.

<Aine_> oops

<Serpente> <*> FOOTNOTE: In the symbolism above outlined, Yod is the Mercurial 

   "Virgin Word", the Spermatozoon concealing its light under a cloke; and Mem is 

   the amniotic fluid, the flood wherein is

<Serpente> the Life-bearing Ark. See A. Crowley "The Ship", Equinox I, X.

* Astarte93 is severely lagged and therefore shuts up

<Feydakin> The Ark, eh?

<Magpie> hmmm. very freudian.

<Serpente> <*> And then, in the Centre of all, broods Spirit, which combines the 

   mildness of the Lamb with the horns of the Ram, and is the letter of Bacchus or 

   "Christ".

<Aine_> re ast

<Astarte93> ack... re93

<Astarte93> IO Pan

<Serpente> I wonder why he says Heh is the letter of Bacchus, I would have thought 

  The Star would have come in to his symbolism

<Astarte93> thanks Fey

<Serpente> He seems to be leaning more toward the Emperor symbolism in this case

<Feydakin> Bachhus and Christ, an interesting combination.

* Astarte93 shoots Serp a mischievious smile

<Serpente> OH must have read ahead

<aleister> did he talk a lot about the star before book of thoth came out?

<Serpente> <*> FOOTNOTE: The letter He is the formula of Nuith, which makes 

   possible the process described in the previous notes. But it is not permissible 

   here to explain fully the exact matter or manner

<Serpente> of this adjustment. I have preferred the exoteric attributions, which are 

   sufficiently informative for the beginner.

<Magpie> well... makes you wonder what comment he's making - to say the youth + age, 

   and then bacchus + christ... or am I only imagining such a connection?

<Serpente> You're right I think Aleister, the note in the back makes reference to 

  his keeping that secret till then I think

<Serpente> the young King, still in his fertile time of life

<Astarte93> We know he thought a lot about it aleister... but wasn't it Achad tat 

   pointed out the tarot tzaddi/star correspondences to him? I forget...

<Serpente> who could even imagine a 70 year old Christ

<aleister> i think the phrase about tzaddi appeared earlier bu twithout expansion

* aleister checks book of thoth

* Feydakin doubts Crowley would have listened to Achad around the time of writing 

  Thoth.

<Astarte93> it appeared in Liber AL aleister

<Astarte93> Achad would have pointed that out long before Thoth, Fey

<aleister> i dont discuss that work astarte

<Serpente> page 780 of liber ABA has a note on this.  the tzaddi-heh counterchange 

  was discovered in 1923 before this work was written

* Astarte93 snickers

<Serpente> oops page 708

<Serpente> note 137

<Astarte93> aleister, go ahead...we shun you anyway ;-)

*** Aine_ has quit IRC (Leaving)

<Feydakin> Astarte Yes, but at the time of writing Thoth, I'm sure Crowley would 

   have done the devil to give Achad credit.

<Serpente> if you have the hard cover blue liber ABA

<Serpente> <*> After the magician has created his instrument, and balanced it 

   truly, and filled it with the lightnings of his Will, then is the weapon laid 

   away to rest; and in this Silence, a true Consecration

<Serpente> comes.

* Feydakin suddenly realises something. Groovy.

<Astarte93> spill em, Fey ;-)

<Feydakin> 93 mat, elicit.

<Mathetes> heheh 93

<Serpente> join the fray math ;)

<Mathetes> ok, where are we?

<Astarte93> uh oh... be right back

<Serpente> <*> After the magician has created his instrument, and balanced it 

   truly, and filled it with the lightnings of his Will, then is the weapon laid 

   away to rest; and in this Silence, a true Consecration

<Serpente> comes.

<Serpente> so then he goes on to the formula of ALIM

* Magpie blinks & shakes her head - I have *got* to get my mind out of the gutter.

<Mathetes> why Mag? that is what it is about

<Magpie> uh... just... the visuals. 

* Magpie stifles a giggle

<Serpente> heheh ok ok 

<Serpente> <*> THE FORMULA OF ALIM

<Serpente> <*> It is extremely interesting to contrast with the above the formula 

   of the elemental Gods deprived of the creative spirit. One might suppose that as 

   ALIM, is the masculine plural of the

<Serpente> masculine noun AL, its formula would be more virile than that of ALHIM, 

   which is the masculine plural of the feminine noun ALH. A moment's investigation 

   is sufficient to dissipate the illusion. The word

<Serpente> masculine has no meaning except in relation to some feminine correlative.

<Mathetes> the fool is balanced by the man and realizes the world is upside down?

<Serpente> <*> The word ALIM may in fact be considered as neuter. By a rather 

   absurd convention, neuter objects are treated as feminine on account of their 

   superficial resemblance in passivity and inertness

<Serpente> with the unfertilized female. But the female produces life by the 

   intervention of the male, while the neuter does so only when impregnated by 

   Spirit. Thus we find the feminine AMA, becoming AIMA,

<Serpente> <*> FOOTNOTE: AMA is 42, the number of sterility; AIMA, 52, that of 

   fertility, of BN, the SON.

<Serpente> <*> through the operation of the phallic Yod, while ALIM, the congress 

   of dead elements, only fructifies by the brooding of Spirit.

<Serpente> hey dagon

<Serpente> Well I'll keep spitting it out

<Dagon> your all going to die

<Serpente> lol

<Serpente> this is a tough crowd

<Serpente> <*> This being so, how can we describe ALIM as containing a Magical 

   Formula? Inquiry discloses the fact that this formula is of a very special kind.

<Serpente> <*> The word adds up to 81, which is a number of the moon. It is thus 

   the formula of witchcraft, which is under Hecate.

<Serpente> <*> FOOTNOTE: See A. Crowley "Orpheus" for the Invocation of this 

   Goddess.

<Magpie> you're moving too fast, Serp. heesh. I can't read that fast with all those 

   damned ||12< etc thingies at the front of the lines.

<Serpente> oh sorry magpie I thought most people had color by now

<Serpente> <*> It is only the romantic mediaeval perversion of science that 

   represents young women as partaking in witchcraft, which is, properly speaking, 

   restricted to the use of such women as are

<Serpente> no longer women in the Magical sense of the word, because thy are no 

   longer capable of corresponding to the formula of the male, and are therefore 

   neuter rather than feminine. It is for this reason that

<Serpente> their method has always been referred to the moon, in that sense of the 

   term in which she appears, not as the feminine correlative of the sun, but as the 

   burnt-out, dead, airless satellite of earth.

<Magpie> nope. I'm technologically stunted.

<Serpente> That will endear the Witches 

<Magpie> uhm, yeah.

* Magpie was wondering if she resembles that comment.

<Serpente> <*> No true Magical operation can be performed by the formula of ALIM. 

   All the works of witchcraft are illusory; and their apparent effects depend on 

   the idea that it is possible to alter

<Serpente> things by the mere rearrangement of them. One must not rely upon the 

   false analogy of the Xylenes to rebut this argument. It is quite true that 

   geometrical isomers act in different manners towards the

<Serpente> substance to which they are brought into relation. And it is of course 

   necessary sometimes to rearrange the elements of a molecule before that molecule 

   can form either the masculine or the feminine element

<Serpente> in a true Magical combination with some other molecule.

<Magpie> oh! I get it.

<Serpente> <*> It is therefore occasionally inevitable for a Magician to reorganize 

   the structure of certain elements before proceeding to his operation proper. 

   Although such work is technically witchcraft,

<Serpente> it must not be regarded as undesirable on that ground, for all operations 

   which do not transmute matter fall strictly speaking under this heading.

<Serpente> I wonder why he felt he could speak of a strict definition of Witchcraft

<Magpie> arrogance.

* Magpie laughs

<Serpente> still it would have been easier for him to not even mention it

<Magpie> Why do you say that? 

<Magpie> It's part of the analogy, tho on philosophical grounds I wouldn't 

   completely agree, it *does* illustrate the point effectively.

<aleister> well, uncle al liked to cultivate prejudices sometimes to appear a more 

   colorful character

<Serpente> Yes I suppose

<Serpente> <*> The real objection to this formula is not inherent in its own 

   nature. Witchcraft consists in treating it as the exclusive preoccupation of 

   Magick, and especially in denying to the Holy

<Serpente> Spirit his right to indwell His Temple.

<Magpie> can I jump in here & ask what the hell does he mean by the Spirit's own 

   Temple? what, the body? heh. .. or ..?

<aleister> yes

<aleister> prolly another meaning as well

<Serpente> and the circle

<Magpie> other half of question: to what does the "it" refer to in the statement: 

   Witchcraft consists in treating it as the exclusive preoccupation of Magick ...?

<Serpente> the formula of ALIM

<Serpente> well that conludes the chapter except for a lengthy foot note

<Magpie> so the implication is that witchcraft is focused narrowly on the 

   moon/deadness/neuter'dness/barren pre-childbearing female stuff?

* Magpie grins

<Magpie> (and I was certain I wouldn't end up doing all the talking)

<Serpente> post childbearing I would think

<Serpente> <*> FOOTNOTE: The initiate of the XI Degree of O.T.O. will remark that 

   there is a totally different formula of ALIM, complementary with that here 

   discussed. 81 may be regarded as a number

<Serpente> of Yesod rather than of Luna. The actual meaning of the word may be taken 

   as indicating the formula. Aleph may be referred to Harpocrates, with allusion to 

   the well-known poem of Catullus. Lamed may imply

<Serpente> the exaltation of Saturn, and suggest the Three of Swords in a particular 

   manner. Yod will then recall Hermes, and Mem the Hanged Man.

<Serpente> <*> We have thus a Tetragrammaton which contains no feminine component. 

   The initial Force is here the Holy Spirit and its vehicle or weapon the "Sword 

   and Balances". Justice is then done upon

<Serpente> the Mercurial "Virgin", with the result that the Man is "Hanged" or 

   extended, and is slain in this manner. Such an operation makes creation 

   impossible --- as in the former case; but here there is no question

<Serpente> of re-arrangement; the creative force is employed deliberately for 

   destruction, and is entirely absorbed in its own sphere (or cylinder, on 

   Einstein's equations) of action. This Work is to be regarded

<Serpente> as "Holiness to the Lord". The Hebrews, in fact, conferred the title of 

   Qadosh (holy) upon its adepts. Its effect is to consecrate the Magicians who 

   perform it in a very special way. We may take note

<Serpente> also of the correspondence of Nine with Teth, XI, Leo, and the Serpent.

<Serpente> <*> The great merits of this formula are that it avoids contact with the 

   inferior planes, that it is self-sufficient, that it involves no 

   responsibilities, and that it leaves its masters not

<Serpente> only stronger in themselves, but wholly free to fulfil their essential 

   Natures. Its abuse is an abomination.

<Magpie> "no longer women in the Magical sense of the word, because thy are no 

   longer capable of corresponding to the formula of the male, and are therefore 

   neuter rather than feminine" - hmm, yeah, postmenopausal, you're right, I missed 

   that. 

<gumby23> 93!

<Magpie> "avoids contact with the inferior planes" - what, the feminine? ack!

*** Magpie sets mode: +o gumby23

<aleister> no, reproduction in the material

<abrasax> 93

<aleister> i think

<abrasax> did I miss the whole discussion

<aleister> nah

<aleister> not all

<Magpie> reproductin in the material? duh, as in, pregnancy sort of reproduction in 

   the body ie material?

<Magpie> sounds determinedly feminine to me... or female. 

<abrasax> hmm, I guess so

<aleister> that was how i took it when i was skimming this chaper yesterday

<Mathetes> moonchild

<Mathetes> hehehe

<aleister> yes math

<Magpie> gotta run, phone call coming through. til later, thx for the answers all

* Magpie waves

<Serpente> 93 mag

<Magpie> 93 etc and all that

<abrasax> 93 gumby

<abrasax> 93 nastasya

<abrasax> brb

<Mathetes> I mean literally "Moon" child...hehehehe

<Mathetes> pekaboo!

<abraxas> so did I miss the discussion

<Serpente> yes abraxas

<abraxas> I got so absorbed in my homework that I totally forgot about it

<Serpente> well dang it we missed you :)

<Serpente> We have a fairly subdued attendence

<Serpente> hehe

<abraxas> was it good

<Serpente> I thought so

<abraxas> are you going to put it up on your page

<Serpente> well I will close out the log unless people feel like going on about this 

  topic for awhile

<Serpente> yep I sure will

<Serpente> <*> That concludes our discussion tonight. Thank you for attending.

<Serpente> <*> Our next discussion is scheduled for Tuesday May 6 at 9PM Eastern 

   Daylight Time on Chapter V - The Formula of I.A.O.

<Serpente> <*> Logs of our previous discussion are available on the Undernet 

   #Thelema home page at:

<Serpente> <*> http://www.winternet.com/~robin/thelema.html

<Serpente> <*> We hope you have found this an interesting experience and thank you 

   for your contributions.

<Serpente> <*> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, 

   love under will.

Session Close: Tue Apr 29 21:51:23 1997

Unless otherwise noted all content Copyright © 1997-2002 Robin